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國外50/1.2L對焦問題討論

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發表於 2007-10-17 21:00 | 顯示全部樓層 |閱讀模式
從"老佳的定焦L"這個討論串獨立出來,避免被淹沒。  [s:37]
http://forum.canonfans.biz/redir ... o=lastpost#lastpost
(持續update)

[ 50mm f/1.2L AF Calibration]
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/572769/0

[Ken Rockwell 50.1/2L review]
http://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/lenses/50mm-f12.htm

[Canon 50mm L series 1.2, autofocus issues]
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18874

[Let's put this to rest: 50 / 1.2L backfocus issue]
http://forums.dpreview.com/forum ... 50&changemode=1

[ 本帖最後由 vario_sonnar 於 2007-10-17 21:10 編輯 ]
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 樓主| 發表於 2007-10-17 21:03 | 顯示全部樓層
我原來的post
http://forum.canonfans.biz/viewt ... ;extra=&page=76

50/1.2L的優點是弱光下的透通感跟發色。
優點說完了。
此鏡有很非常嚴重的設計問題,也是我用過最糟糕的L鏡。
Canon真是個不負責任的X商,竟然讓這種產品上市。

我遇到的問題跟國外許多使用者所發現的一模一樣。
請見Chris Crevasse的post,
http://luminous-landscape.com/fo ... dex.php/t18874.html

====================================================================================================
This May, I corresponded with Canon\'s Chuck Westfall about the 50/1.2 focus issue. His reply is below. The problem as I understand it is that the lens will be correctly focused at f/1.2 (it always focuses wide open), but when the lens stops down for exposure, the focus will shift to the rear, perhaps as the result of spherical aberration. Thus, manual focus will not solve the problem unless you manually correct by focusing slightly closer. According to reports, the problem is worst at f/2.8 at a focus distance of a few feet.

Here\'s Mr. Westfall\'s response to me, dated May 24, 2007. To my knowledge there has been no further response from Mr. Westfall or Canon about this issue. My guess is that the problem is inherent to the design of the lens, so there is no easy cure, and perhaps no cure at all.

Hi, Chris:

Canon Inc. is definitely aware of the claims concerning the AF accuracy of the EF50/1.2L USM. They\'ve been investigating for the past couple of months, and I am told that there will be some kind of public announcement forthcoming in the near future. Stay tuned, and thanks for using Canon equipment!

Best Regards,

Chuck Westfall
Director/Media & Customer Relationship
Camera Marketing Group/Canon U.S.A., Inc.

大意就是有50/1.2L在近距離開放光圈F/1.2拍攝時大多可以準確對焦,但是若您對維持拍攝距離持續對一個主體縮光圈拍攝,
隨著光圈愈縮,整個焦平面會持續往後移,甚至讓主體移出景深外,縮到F/2.8時是整個問題最嚴重的時候。

意思就是,您的50/1.2L\"可能\"只有F/1.2,還有F/3.2~F/16是準焦的,
F/1.4~F/2.8這段在近距離時(大約兩公尺內)完全不能用。

該文作者去函Canon U.S.A. 客服部門,
Canon的回應是Canon已經知道有這個問題,過去幾個月都在研究問題之所在。等有結果會公佈。
=====================================================================================================


同樣的問題此網站也有很多人遇到,絕對不是個案,
http://www.fredmiranda.com/revie ... mp;cat=2&page=2
用google search \"50mm 1.2L focusing shift\"也可以找到一堆。

我自己買的50/1.2L就是這樣,兩公尺拍攝距離只有F/1.2是準焦的,從F/1.4開始主體會移出景深外,到F/2.8時最嚴重,
F/2.8以後因為景深開始可以涵蓋掉焦平面的偏差又會開始變清楚,進彩虹監獄回來後情況稍有改善,不過還不是很滿意,
我購買時測試只用F/1.2測試所以沒發現這個問題。  

post完這篇50/1.2L的二手價大概完蛋了,
不過我手上這顆爛鏡我也不敢拿去害人...沒差。

只希望之後Canon能透過相機韌體修正避開正個問題。
這顆若準的時候表現真的不錯。
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 樓主| 發表於 2007-10-17 21:16 | 顯示全部樓層
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/572769/2

看起來滿像一回事的post,
看起來50 1.2L \"focus shift\"的issue是球面像差造成的?是設計上的妥協與特性?
文中提到Zeiss ZM 50mm 1.5 Sonnar在設計為了完美的散景,設計時刻意不修正球面像差,代價就是\"focus shift\",
Zeiss可以依使用者的習慣 - 常開放光圈or縮光圈拍攝,幫忙校正。但是沒有辦法校正到兩邊都好。[s:11]

The newish Zeiss ZM 50mm 1.5 Sonnar is purposely designed with loads of spherical aberration, for a 1930s glamour portrait look. The price is loads of focus shift (Zeiss will calibrate the lens for use wide open or stopped down, your choice - but you can\'t have both).

canonfans應該臥虎藏龍,
有沒有懂光學的大大能幫忙解釋? [s:44]
原文如下:

focus shift has been around forever. it was pretty common in older lenses with 100% spherical elements. The problem is spherical aberration - near the center of the lens elements, the curvature is relatively low and the aberration between ideal and actual is pretty small. When you stop down, the lens only sees through the well-corrected center so you have \"correct\" focus. Near the edges (included in the wide open image), spherical aberration piles up and can cause a shift in the plane of best focus between the ideal (similar to where it would be at say f8) and actual. Since spherical aberration varies by color, there\'s usually also some smearing and loss of sharpness with non-monochrome subjects.

All of this can be fixed with aspherical and APO elements. Problem is, most often those corrections bring along nasty bokeh. For world class bokeh, it\'s a balancing act between leaving aberrations in the wide-open lens (for nice portrait bokeh, since a 50 1.2 is going to be used as a portrait lens on 1.6) and being fully-corrected stopped down. Apparently the possibility of focus shift either eluded Canon, or was deemed to be acceptable.

For more examples of focus shift, read up on the Leica 35mm Summilux-M ASPH and the 50mm 1.0 Noctilux. The newish Zeiss ZM 50mm 1.5 Sonnar is purposely designed with loads of spherical aberration, for a 1930s glamour portrait look. The price is loads of focus shift (Zeiss will calibrate the lens for use wide open or stopped down, your choice - but you can\'t have both). A google seach will reveal a lot of large format guys talking about it (LF guys commonly use 80-year-old lenses, which are very simple spherical symmetric lenses prone to focus shift). The Leica M8 has been exposing focus shift in classic lenses with a vengeance. One theory is that the thickness and waviness of film emulsions has been covering up this kind of focus shift since the dawn of time, and only the ruthlessly flat digital sensors reveal it.

[ 本帖最後由 vario_sonnar 於 2007-10-17 21:28 編輯 ]
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發表於 2007-10-17 21:47 | 顯示全部樓層

回復 #3 vario_sonnar 的帖子

星期天喜宴時帶了35, 50, 85三顆L頭去拍照,回來後發現有一半的照片是50/1.2L拍的

其中光圈值大都落在F1.8到F2.8之間,剛剛得知此境之問題後仔細檢查當天照片後發現沒有一張失焦的

看來老天爺真是待偶不薄啊[s:19] [s:19] [s:19] [s:19] [s:19]

底下照片之光圈值依序是 2.2, 2.5, 2.8

[ 本帖最後由 jawfs 於 2008-1-23 20:36 編輯 ]
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 樓主| 發表於 2007-10-17 21:54 | 顯示全部樓層
[s:43] [s:43] [s:43]

要找機會來個貍貓換太子。[s:41] [s:41] [s:41]
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發表於 2007-10-17 21:57 | 顯示全部樓層

回復 #5 vario_sonnar 的帖子

平常時我仔細測試過,F1.4之後就準得不得了在室內我常用F1.4到F1.8之間,只要F1.6就很有信心說![s:51] [s:51] [s:51]

跟EF50/1.4比起來發色真的是濃很多[s:34] [s:34] [s:34]


ps. 為了避免人家生氣其餘的照片偶PO回自己那樓[s:25] [s:25] [s:25]

[ 本帖最後由 jawfs 於 2007-10-17 22:00 編輯 ]
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發表於 2007-10-17 22:02 | 顯示全部樓層

回復 #5 vario_sonnar 的帖子

貍貓換太子的壞點子上回那隻毒貓已想過了說[s:30] [s:30] [s:30]
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發表於 2007-10-17 22:15 | 顯示全部樓層
原帖由 vario_sonnar 於 2007-10-17 21:16 發表
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/572769/2

看起來滿像一回事的post,
看起來50 1.2L \"focus shift\"的issue是球面像差造成的?是設計上的妥協與特性?
文中提到Zeiss ZM 50mm 1.5 Sonnar在設計為了完美的散景,設 ...


應該說焦點偏移
是球面像差無法完全矯正的後果

關於鏡頭設計
這幾篇文章值得一讀(中文版喔)
http://leicafanclub.org/report/m50f10.htm

http://leicafanclub.org/institute/leicafaq-1.htm

或是直接去Erwin Puts的網站去看

[ 本帖最後由 perahia 於 2007-10-17 22:17 編輯 ]
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 樓主| 發表於 2007-10-17 22:15 | 顯示全部樓層
我也來張50L

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 樓主| 發表於 2007-10-17 22:19 | 顯示全部樓層
都用F/1.2拍攝其實滿準的,

近距離用F/1.4 ~ F/2.8比較容易出問題。 [s:52]

本帖子中包含更多資源

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發表於 2007-10-17 22:38 | 顯示全部樓層

回復 #10 vario_sonnar 的帖子

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 樓主| 發表於 2007-10-17 22:56 | 顯示全部樓層
[EF 50/1.2L@ lnx.dk]
http://lnx.dk/archives/2007/02/21/104

When I began testing the lens a bit more though, I noticed some focusing issues. When focusing the lens at close distances, the lens focuses fine at maximum aperture, but stopped a bit down (to fx. f3.2), the lens backfocuses.

Here’s two samples at f1.2 and f3.2. The camera was set to center focus only, focused on the D in DNK, and each shot was repeated about 5 times with consistent results.

It seems like I’m not the first one to notice these issues, so I’ve written an email to the dealer, and asked them if they have anything from Canon on this issue, before I returned the lens.
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發表於 2007-10-18 00:21 | 顯示全部樓層
前陣子去日本玩順便幫同事購入這顆鏡頭
試用了一下
感覺這顆鏡頭在近距離拍攝的時候(大約一公尺內)對焦容易跑掉
遠一點的距離就OK
個人感覺
50的焦段應該也很少機會近距離拍攝
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發表於 2007-10-18 10:47 | 顯示全部樓層
偶還是比較在意以這樣的價位,跟Summilux R比較的結果[s:21]
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發表於 2007-10-18 11:38 | 顯示全部樓層

回復 #14 1900103 的帖子

可以af就是了
當初有人就是這麼說
EF 50/1.0當初和Leica那顆的價錢好像差不多
不過這是很久以前的事情了[s:52]
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